Interviewers: Kerry O'Brien
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Posted 02 October 2005
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Kerry O'Brien on the hardest interview he'd ever had to do:
"The interview I did with Jonathan Shier when he was my managing director at the ABC, and whom history now makes abundantly clear, made a complete hash of the job. It was about two-thirds of the way through his tenure that I persuaded him to come on for an interview. I suppose my opening question to him was a provocative question. I was staring into the eyes of my own boss."
They've made a living out of grilling our public figures, celebrities and criminals. Now it's their turn to give some answers. Interviews with four of TV's most formidable interviewers - Jana Wendt, Andrew Denton, Kerry O'Brien and Laurie Oakes - about the art of asking questions.
KERRY O'BRIEN
For the past 10 years, Kerry O’Brien, 60, has been editor and compere of The 7.30 Report, the ABC’s current affairs flagship. Brisbane-born O’Brien worked his way up from news cadet at Channel Nine in Brisbane to senior reporter on This Day Tonight and Four Corners. He took a detour in 1977 to work as press secretary for Labor leader Gough Whitlam, then for deputy leader Lionel Bowen. In 1983-84, he was North America correspondent for the Seven Network and later the ABC’s political correspondent and the Ten Network’s political editor. Prior to The 7.30 Report, he fronted the ABC’s Lateline for six years.
What is a good interview, and how is it achieved?
When you walk away feeiing that you’ve persuaded the person to communicate. The imperatives that are always the same are doing the research, doing the thinking, doing the analysing. I’ll give you an example: Neil Young. He rarely does interviews with anybody. I think he walked into our interview [in 2003] wary. But because I was able to demonstrate quickly that I knew his music, that I understood his place in the music spectrum, and where he saw himself coming from, you could see him relax and become communicative and responsive. Even on an area like drugs, where I knew he would be reluctant to be drawn, and deaths of people close to him, which inspired some of his lyrics, he responded positively.
Why do people tell you things?
This was true particularly of Lateline: we did fantastic research, and I would then talk wherever possible in advance to the interviewees around the topic, to get a better handle on who they were, and where they were coming from. It was a signal that this was going to be a serious interview, with proper time devoted to it, and if they did not come prepared, they risked being embarrassed. In the case of someone like Neil Young, you’re able to strike a chord that gets past the weariness or the wariness. And maybe sometimes you can make someone laugh.
Do political interviews always need to be combative?
I think it’s a shame that political interviews have become more combative than they were, which doesn’t mean every political interview is combative. I did interviews with Andrew Robb, when he got pre-selection for the Liberal Party, and Peter Garrett, when he threw his hat in the ring for Labor. The tone of both those interviews was significantly different from the tone I’ll use with seasoned politicians on big running issues. In both cases, there was a chance that as newcomers they’d be prepared to approach the interview in the right spirit, to be a bit giving of themselves, and in both cases they were.
Do people’s assumptions about your politics ever influence whether they will agree to be interviewed?
I have never seen any evidence of that. Regardless of what politicians might say in criticism of me, I think they would understand the reality is different. No one has ever laid a formal complaint about any interview I have done with them. We have had complaints about stories, but there’s never been a complaint lodged against me about the way I conduct interviews.
I never have and I won’t discuss my political beliefs, because there will be some people who will automatically assume that they colour my judgement, which is not the case. As far as I am concerned, my personal views are my own views, and they don’t enter the picture. As far as politicians are concerned, the issues of the day will dictate who we invite onto the show, and how we frame the questions.
Do you have a golden moment as an interviewer?
There have been too many interviews [to name one]. On Lateline I interviewed [former Soviet president Mikhail] Gorbachev after he had left politics, and although that interview was through a translator, which inevitably had its frustrations, I walked away pleased because Gorbachev opened up on all sorts of things, including spirituality.
I did an interview with Bette Midler recently that I really enjoyed. She was thoughtful and intelligent. I talked to her for nearly half an hour before the interview, and she hung about and we talked for nearly half an hour afterwards. It was like a kind of rolling interview for some of which the camera was on.
I did an interview with Bruce Springsteen years ago, which I really enjoyed doing, because I was a Springsteen fan. Sometimes with these people you just know they’ve done 100 interviews before yours, and if you get them beyond their stock standard answers, you’ve achieved something. It’s finding a spark of response in them where they’ve picked up the vibe that this might be as little bit different to the last 50 they’ve done.
Have you experienced real chemistry during an interview?
Well, what do you call chemistry? It’s a combination of personality and intellect. Call it engagement. I had engagement with Midler. I interviewed Betty Friedan, the godmother of the women’s movement, for Lateline. She was at the end of a satellite, but that was an interview where I thought there was a [personal] connection. I did that 13 or 14 years ago and I still remember it.
Can you tell if an interviewee is lying?
Body language can be a powerful element in an interview. Defensive body language can be revealing. In the end, viewers make up their minds. There are various signs of discomfort. I don’t want to itemise them because I’m not going to help the politicians and the spin-doctors refine their process.
How do you break through spin?
It can be a matter of fine judgement when you see a question being batted away and not answered, whether you repeat it once, twice, five times. I’ve done all of those. I did one interview with a politician [the then Assistant Treasurer, Senator Rod Kemp, in April 1999] where I asked one question [whether a change in law would financially benefit casinos] something like eight times, slightly differently each time, and at the end said, “you are clearly not going to answer the question.” The vast majority of people who rang in were somewhat abusive about the politician and some complimented me on my persistence.
Have you ever been surprised by an interview?
I interviewed John Hewson when he had his back to the wall as [federal Liberal Opposition] leader. He had been going nowhere after the defeat of 1993, and hadn’t been able to pick himself up and reassert his leadership within his party. The knives were out for him and I had picked up on that. I invited him onto the program, and he came on the next day, but in the meantime, somebody phoned through to me with some private Liberal Party polling that was devastating for him. When I put the question to him [on air] about the polling, it was abundantly clear he hadn’t been informed [of its existence], and he was, as others described him subsequently, like a rabbit caught in headlights. That was a devastating interview, not for any cleverness on my part, but simply because of the information that I had. I was surprised that there could be such a deceit inside one of the two major political parties. It is my understanding that what that interview did was to bring forward the leadership change that others had been planning.
What’s the hardest interview you’ve ever had to do?
The interview I did with Jonathan Shier when he was my managing director at the ABC, and whom history now makes abundantly clear, made a complete hash of the job. It was about two-thirds of the way through his tenure that I persuaded him to come on for an interview. I suppose my opening question to him was a provocative question. I was staring into the eyes of my own boss. At the same time, the audience had to see that although I was asking tough and provocative questions, that I wasn’t pursuing an agenda. My opening question invited him to give us evidence he wasn’t a failure. Those weren’t the precise words that I used, but it was a tough question. I knew that it wouldn’t endear me to him. But I don’t remember feeling any qualm about it. He subsequently revealed, which I didn’t know at the time, that he had been seeking to have me removed from the program.
Have you ever felt intimidated by an interviewee?
I don’t think so. I can remember many years ago when I was on Four Corners, and I used to occasionally interview Malcolm Fraser as prime minister. He’s such a tall man, and was very aloof at the same time. I could never remember doing a comfortable interview with him in that time, but I don’t know that anyone could say they did. It was an uncomfortable mix, but not intimidation. I haven’t interviewed Malcolm for years. I think he’s more comfortable in his own skin now.
Do you have a technique for handling dull interviewees?
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. If a person is intrinsically dull, then that’s probably going to come through. I don’t have any tricks for lifting the performance of someone who’s essentially a dull and boring human being.
What is the best skill an interviewer can bring to the job?
It’s the respect the interviewee will see that comes from your display of preparedness. Not the, “yes-sir, no-sir” tug your cap respect, which is often a false respect. It's the respect you display by having done the work to prepare for the interview.
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